The Nursery, a fifth ward.

[Gorehorn]

The biggest issue with a "casual ward" is it allows for people to join up, reap all the benefits of being in Nyx without contribution. Currently Nyxers can raid, be involved in mass or small RP or PVP events and have access to one monumentally high value guild bank. nnAllowing a ward to have access to all this and contribute nohting is counterproductive and will create issues within the ranks. If an essenentially undocumented servile ward should be created, they should also have severly diminshed availability to the other aspects of Nyx. Why join if you do not want to contribute in some way? There are a multitude of casual and hang out guilds that spring up and die every day on ED. Nyx has the benefit of an identity and strong ethics (sometimes brutally enforced). Down ranking the expectations of performance also downranks the expectations of what we recruit. nnSoon we would be no more than EBOLA or any of the other historical mass-recruit/no requirement failed guilds of ED. nnnUnacceptable.

[Locomono]

*nods at the Elder* Those were my exact thoughts when I read Gorehorn's original post and is the reason I agreed. I wasn't quite opposed to the idea of a general population/social members. But I don't think they should have some of the others perks we get. Such as GB access/free enchants from gb. Otherwise count me social and put me there.

[Asarelah]

IF they are in the Auxiliry of G&N that can be noted "Auxiliary" on their in game tag. They might ALSO remain at Ephemeral Rank since NO Ward has adopted them.nnWe are hoping to move to all promotions being done by the Ward Leaders. If no Ward adopts them, they don't get promoted.nnEphemeral would make them not eligible for enchants / mats / gear, etc from the GB per say - on a case by case basis unless a Ward Leader requests them "geared up." Further, their in game access to the guild bank is automatically restricted at that rank, and they can only obtain items by request.nnThat could somewhat eliminate or at least slow down people joining to gear up then moving on when we have them all decked out.nnFurther, they can still be "drafted" by a Ward to fill in where needed, and CAN participate in any event going on if eligible.nnJust a thought.....

[Marlonis]

OOCnnGreat idea, not so great name because of negative impact with the members. Great idea as good taste for many things and ablility to see and feel that ward they aspire too.

[Myyah]

Hai I think Lah's solution would solve the issues you bring up, Gorehorn. You argument does bring up an interesting philosophy.. Does Nyx only allow the productive membership you describe, thereby creating a military feel to the organization? Or do we allow for this fifth ward which in effect creates a civilian population with highly diminished rights, thereby creating a Nyxian Nation of sorts that is under Martial Law? Hmmm

[Tanaaka]

Why join if you do not want to contribute in some way?

nI suppose it depends on your definition of contribute. A person might feel like they are contributing if they are online to chat with family members or friends, run the occasional 5 man instance, hop in on a battlegroup here and there, or just generally dabble at everything. nnAgain, I'm still wondering why there is the focus on "contributors", I don't really understand what the concern is so it's tougher to pin point a solution. Are we over populated? Or is it that we don't have enough dedicated raiders/pvpers/RPers to create competition at events, such that we wind up inviting and carrying casuals and then resent that they essentially got a free ride? If it's the former, then setting standards and getting rid of social members is the way to go. If it's the latter, I urge caution lest you wind up holding an empty bag -- you always need backups who are less serious, otherwise you will lose your backups (serious raiders/pvp/ won't accept a backup role for long before leaving for greener pastures). In the latter case, what's really needed is focused recruitment that eventually brings in more serious people and makes those event slots valuable and rarely given to Socials.nnI guess part of what confuses me is, I no longer understand what the guild wants to be. My understanding is that Nyx is a Casual guild, divided into areas of interest, with people at varying levels of activity within each of those areas. I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad thing to set standards and become more hard core, but I will throw out the old "be careful what you wish for" because there is a fine line that once crossed with something like "we're getting rid of non-contributors and getting serious", you will be able to focus on excellence but you also need to deliver results or people will leave for guilds that are better at raiding, or PvP, or whatever their area of interest might be. Don't be fooled into thinking "It's Nyx, we've got a great history and atmosphere" will be enough to attract or retain people once we cross the line from Casual guild to Mid Core or Hard Core. Once that line is crossed, atmosphere is important but ability to down a boss or achieve certain arena ratings will start to take precedence. It's a slippery slope once you get rid of those darn pesky non-contributor Social members and impose standards for just being a member as opposed to setting standards in order to earn event invitations.

[Grawlix]

I agree with Tanaaka. There are plenty of hardcore guilds out there, some of which may as well be named "Place to Find an Arena Team" or "Raids T-Th at 9pm". I don't think Nyx should throw away what it is to be one of those things, or especially not try to be all of those things, which is impossible to pull off.

[Gorehorn]

The slope is just as slippery the other direction my friends. Allowing people to be lay-abouts will create an atmosphere of lay abouts. People standing in line for their turn to go on a daily or for raids or be rescued from pvp nasties because the others are supposed to do it. I gurantee you that when people go out of their way to help others, which we do by the ton here, and it is not reciprocated, it creates hard feelings. nnPeople join Nyx to be part of a special group of people. We are not the elite PVP or PVE guild of the server. We may or may not be the most well known RP guild. People join Nyx to be part of one of those things. If they do not have that as a reason, then do they really belong? Guild size is irrelavent. If you have 20 or 200 or 2000 contributers (people putting in effort to make Nyx a better guild) you have people with an interest in success and all working towards it. nnThe more people you have NOT contributing, the more resentment you get from those who do. Logging on and chatting with friends is not something that requires a guild. That only requires a chat channel or vent. Nyx is much much more than a chat channel or a vent hang out.

[Asarelah]

I gurantee you that when people go out of their way to help others, which we do by the ton here, and it is not reciprocated, it creates hard feelings.

nnI am sorry to admit but I do feel disappointed when I work my fanny off for the Tribe, and folk that we just fed Fish Feasts to / provided PvE supplies (Camo, Worg, Invis) for / enchanted for / disbursed from the GB for / geared up for / called for rescue from PvP for / organized and ran a huge variety of daily events for, etc. turn a blind eye or flat out say no when asked to pitch in.nnFor example, every two weeks I circulate "The Guild Bank Needs" list. 99 times out of 100, the people that step up and deposit items from that list are those that rarely or never ask for anything, and are always first in line when help is called for. This is just ONE example. Sadly the list is endless. nnThe prevailing attitude in the general population is "someone else will do it." Since the guild is so large, and so many services are provided for "free", it's absolutely exhausting carrying around so much dead weight.

[Tanaaka]

People join Nyx to be part of a special group of people. We are not the elite PVP or PVE guild of the server. We may or may not be the most well known RP guild.n

nIf people join Nyx to be part of a special group of people, yet we are not the elites, what is special about us? To me the answer is simple, the people, the atmosphere, and thus for the life of me I can't see why we'd want to change that and try to compete with the elites by shifting to performance requirements merely to be a guild member. Once you say we're Serious Business, no deadweights, meet standards or hit the road, you are competing with the elites whether you like it or not. At that point, people judge a guild based on what progression is offered (PvE or PvP), not what the atmosphere is like, and they join or stay based on that progression rather than the atmosphere.nn

Logging on and chatting with friends is not something that requires a guild. That only requires a chat channel or vent.

nAnd once you teach people that, and start competing with the elites by cutting the "dead weight", you have taught them that they can go to any highly rated PvE or PvP guild and keep in touch with their friends. nnWhat will be the value proposition of Nyx once you say it's no longer "Come hang out with wonderful people regardless of your skill or time to commit"? By default the value proposition changes to "We are at X level of Raid or PvP abilities, come raid and PvP with us if you are at about the same level". If everyone is aware of what that change means going into it, that's one thing, but to ignore the repercussions or go in with one blind eye can be disaster.