The Nursery, a fifth ward.

[Thomasbecket]

nWhat will be the value proposition of Nyx once you say it's no longer "Come hang out with wonderful people regardless of your skill or time to commit"? By default the value proposition changes to "We are at X level of Raid or PvP abilities, come raid and PvP with us if you are at about the same level". If everyone is aware of what that change means going into it, that's one thing, but to ignore the repercussions or go in with one blind eye can be disaster.

nnApathy is a cancer; the growth in number of people who don't help other guild-mates will do one of two things: make helpful members say "eh, screw it" or make those helpful members pull up stakes and leave for another guild, and then what do you have? A loose collective that's little more than a chat room. Worst case scenario, to be sure, but I can see it happening without too much imagination.nnMaybe it's time to reassess the guild's mission statement, whatever that may be. If we decide to be an 'onward and upward' guild, then perhaps that should be stated, and those who don't want to be in such an organization can go elsewhere or start maybe a sister guild. If we decide that we're a "come and hang out guild", then people who want more esteem can go elsewhere or start a sister guild, without tearing out their hair over the apathy of others.nnThere is certainly a faction that's dissatisfied with things - it's either their problem or it's the guild's problem. Stating with clarity what our goals are will make things easier for people who ultimately don't agree with those goals.

[Gorehorn]

People join Nyx to be part of a special group of people. We are not the elite PVP or PVE guild of the server. We may or may not be the most well known RP guild.n

nIf people join Nyx to be part of a special group of people, yet we are not the elites, what is special about us? To me the answer is simple, the people, the atmosphere, and thus for the life of me I can't see why we'd want to change that and try to compete with the elites by shifting to performance requirements merely to be a guild member. Once you say we're Serious Business, no deadweights, meet standards or hit the road, you are competing with the elites whether you like it or not. At that point, people judge a guild based on what progression is offered (PvE or PvP), not what the atmosphere is like, and they join or stay based on that progression rather than the atmosphere.nn

Logging on and chatting with friends is not something that requires a guild. That only requires a chat channel or vent.

nAnd once you teach people that, and start competing with the elites by cutting the "dead weight", you have taught them that they can go to any highly rated PvE or PvP guild and keep in touch with their friends. nnWhat will be the value proposition of Nyx once you say it's no longer "Come hang out with wonderful people regardless of your skill or time to commit"? By default the value proposition changes to "We are at X level of Raid or PvP abilities, come raid and PvP with us if you are at about the same level". If everyone is aware of what that change means going into it, that's one thing, but to ignore the repercussions or go in with one blind eye can be disaster.

nnThe problem is that either by intent or by accident you leave out the wards of both Lore and Growth & Nourishment, two of the largest wards in Nyx. Dead weight is not participating in the minimum requirements for THOSE either. IS setting a participation level for those wards unacceptable to the casual as well? nnI am sorry my friend, but if people only want to hang out and enjoy the benefits of Nyx without putting anything in, they are not helping the guild in any way at all. A charming mooch is still a mooch. I am not calling any of our members that particular class but it will become the perception.

[Tanaaka]

Thomasbecket, I agree that apathy is a cancer and that if present needs to be dealt with. I'm not saying setting standards and removing members is the wrong path. But I don't think the advocates for such a path have fully thought through all of the consequences.nnPerformance does not cure apathy, creating competition for event slots cures guild apathy. For example: Someone can be the greatest PvP player ever and work hard to have great gear, and still not have the time or inclination to help people getting ganked out in the world or even show regularly for guild premades.nnI think you are correct, in that there should be some revisitation of the guild mission and vision so that people on all sides of the issue can see what path lies ahead and decide their intentions accordingly.

[Tanaaka]

nThe problem is that either by intent or by accident you leave out the wards of both Lore and Growth & Nourishment, two of the largest wards in Nyx. Dead weight is not participating in the minimum requirements for THOSE either. IS setting a participation level for those wards unacceptable to the casual as well? nnI am sorry my friend, but if people only want to hang out and enjoy the benefits of Nyx without putting anything in, they are not helping the guild in any way at all. A charming mooch is still a mooch. I am not calling any of our members that particular class but it will become the perception.

nLore and G&N are harder to provide examples. I don't know, for example, if there are guilds that are such great Lore places to be that people compare them the same way that they compare guild raid progress or PvP progress.nnI can go to http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/emerald-dream and see that Nyx is not a top 20 raid guild on Emerald Dream. I can go to http://www.wowarmory.com/arena-ladder.x ... rald+Dream and see that Nyx does not field a top 20 arena team on Emerald Dream. I don't know where to go to show examples of how Nyx compares to others for Lore or G&N.nnHowever, I'd say "yes", that the same applies to those Wards. Those Wards are less progression oriented, perhaps one would say more time oriented, but are you advocating that Lore is better off without a great RP/Lore player who only attends RP/Lore events once a month as opposed to some required minimum like once a week? How have we improved that Ward by taking a small contribution and turning it into a zero contribution? Performance/attendance minimums make less sense in those Wards than in the progression focused Wards.nnYou mention that you don't want dead weight to enjoy the benefits of the guild? If they are casual hang out people, they should see simply being in guild with friends as benefit enough. I see no problem, for example, telling those kinds of players that they don't get free enchants, that they don't get to raid unless the team is desperate for a warm body that night, etc. But to say that they have no place at all, that their presence and company bring no benefit at all, is both short sighted and will lead to a guild that will not resemble Nyx as we know it today.

[Aitana]

From our charter:n

Nyx is as a casual social guild with a strong RP focus, that also does PvE and PvP.

nnFrom our guild listing on the Emerald Dream forums:n

<Nyx>, http://www.thenyx.org, RP ++, PvE ++, PvP ++; Aitana, Asarelah and Warburn nnKey:nNone *nLight +nMedium ++nHeavy +++

nnI think our charter says it best. Nyx is as a casual social guild with a strong RP focus, that also does PvE and PvP. We do a bit of everything and we aren't hardcore anything. This is a hard balance to pull off well and we have had varied success over the years. On one side there is the dangers that go with having people adopt a laissez-faire attitude with the expectation that everything should be handed to them or apathy. On the other there is the danger of driving off casual players that make Nyx an enjoyable place to be. There is a place for people that don't meet the requirements of a specific Ward that are here primarily for social purposes.nnFor those that meet the requirements of joining a Ward, that's great and it's obvious where they fit in the guild. For those that do not, that is the question posed in this thread. Options that I have seen suggested so far:nn

1. Kick them out after a period of time if they do not join a Ward.nI don't like this idea because I think there is a place for people that like to come hang out here. Tanaaka does have a good point about creating competition to prevent apathy in this group and to encourage them to participate and contribute in whatever limited way they can.
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2. Leave them wardless as Ephemerals until they join a Ward.nI like this idea. The minimum benefits of joining a Ward would be a promotion and more guild bank access.
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3. Put anybody that doesn't meet the requirements of any other ward into G&N or Lore.nI'm hesitant to do this unless the Nightwarder of either of those Wards give the ok to it.
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4. Allow everybody to select what Ward they are interested in, but the Ward leadership designates which people have met the requirements of full membership of that Ward.
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5. IF they are in the Auxiliry of G&N that can be noted "Auxiliary" on their in game tag. They might ALSO remain at Ephemeral Rank since NO Ward has adopted them.nnWe are hoping to move to all promotions being done by the Ward Leaders. If no Ward adopts them, they don't get promoted.nnEphemeral would make them not eligible for enchants / mats / gear, etc from the GB per say - on a case by case basis unless a Ward Leader requests them "geared up." Further, their in game access to the guild bank is automatically restricted at that rank, and they can only obtain items by request.nnThat could somewhat eliminate or at least slow down people joining to gear up then moving on when we have them all decked out.nnFurther, they can still be "drafted" by a Ward to fill in where needed, and CAN participate in any event going on if eligible.nnJust a thought.....

   nThis is a variation of the other options listed and sounds workable.
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6. Creating another Ward for casual players that don't meet the requirements of the other Wards.nThis is my least favorite because it looks like the work it would require wouldn't create enough benefit especially when compared to the other options. From the sounds of the other discussion, this is not a popular option.

nnThere has been some very good discussion about apathy within the membership, the role of the Wards, and the place for members that don't meet the requirements of any particular ward. I have been following this thread closely and will continue to do so.

[Gorehorn]

I would like to add, specifically to Tanakka here, that I am not advocating kicking people out of Nyx. It is my designated role to provide what are often the "unpopular point of view". My adopted role is called 'Bull in the china shop'. But I would be lying if I were to say that the lassez-faire bug that erodes so many succesful guilds doesn't give me worry. It is a pervasive attitude that sneaks up on people. nnAdd to that, as an individual I am personally very motivated to drive for success. To my way of thinking, casual gets too casual and having been in Nyx as long as I have (october 07) I charge in full bore when I see somehting that may challenge the durability of Nyx. The people are the strength of the guild but moreover it is the flexibility provided by the family atmosphere and the desire to DO for each other that makes Nyx the magical thing that it is. nnWe are not top progression but we are well progressed. We do not have top arena teams but we are well known for PVP. Our cross faction RP has been legendary and our G&N folks are without equal in the duties they perforn for Nyxers every single day. nnI would be embarrassed to join such an organization only to hang out in the presence of such achievers. I would want to achieve alongside them. To those who want to be Nyx, I say "Come! Be Nyx! Be all that we are and help us be more than anyone can be alone". That is what breeds the family atmosphere. That is what breathes the life and energy and excitement for Nyxers to log on every day. To share in the glory and the downsides and the achievements and the failures of our brothers and sisters. nnI have a Nyx tag over my head and it means something to me and to all who see it.

[Eione]

I like option 2 best Aitana, nicely summed up. Give people incentive and they might achieve.nnGorehorn as a very recent follower of Nyx I felt that I worked hard to be accepted. To me it was all worth it because following Nyx is where I want to be. nnSure I can't make most guild events and yes that annoys me somewhat. I love my weekends when I can do things with you guys!! It's a juggling act sure but it is fun to be able to talk with like minded people about things we enjoy both in and out of game, on the forums and vent. I'm casual to the extreme now days but I like contributing because it makes me feel good about myself and good about our guild. It gives me a place to relax and have fun with new friends.nnPS Lah I enjoy making you laugh.

[Tanaaka]

Gorehound, I apologize if I misinterpreted your position or lumped it in with what seem to be other positions advocating that people not meeting attendance or performance standards be kicked from the guild. I have no worry with such standards being requirements in order to be full members of a given Ward, or such standards be met in order to get guild rewards like free enchants. My concern is when such standards are implemented as requirements to be a basic member at all, that really changes what the guild is all about.nnAitana has some good thoughts, and 2/5 seem logical with minimal work on the officers.

[Myyah]

Put anybody that doesn't meet the requirements of any other ward into G&N or Lore.nI'm hesitant to do this unless the Nightwarder of either of those Wards give the ok to it.

nnI will never sign off on that as long as I am Nightwarder... I've fought against G&N becoming the Waiting Room for Trials or War for a long time, and I believe we have cleared that out , nearly 100%. nn

But I would be lying if I were to say that the lassez-faire bug that erodes so many succesful guilds doesn't give me worry.

nnAfter seeing nearly 6 pages of debate on this, I currently don't see the lassez faire. Now I realize 80% of us don't come to forums at all, but there's always going to be the Pareto Principle.. always always always. Life fits nicely into a bell curve and Nyx is no exception. Trim the lower x3 standard deviation of the population, if they don't trim themselves off , and we'll be good to go. Let the individual Ward Leaders decide who is pulling weight and who is not. And for those that are not.. Wardless they become. I imagine those that become Wardless, will either snap to and try to get back inot a Ward.. or find themselves the door. I know that that's what I would do. nnI as well like option 2 and option 5, with the exception of calling it auxillery (it should have no name at all and I would loosely call it Ward 5)

[Aitana]

Trim the lower x3 standard deviation of the population, if they don't trim themselves off , and we'll be good to go.

nWe do trim off the very lowest standard deviations of people when we kick those that stopped logging in for the past 6 months or more and are at the rank of Ephemeral. Perhaps we ought to revisit our attendance requirements and tighten them up a little.